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Podcast interview: Victor on what BDSM really is
Jolanda from the Brabants Meisje podcast interviews Victor for the second time. The last episode was about curiosity, swingers clubs and threesomes; this time they go deeper into the world of BDSM. What it really is, beyond the whips and handcuffs. The conversation below has been transcribed and lightly edited for readability.
Rather listen than read? Listen to the interview
Let’s start with the letters
Jolanda: Today Victor is sitting across from me again. A man who once came into contact with BDSM out of pure curiosity and has now been in that world for more than 25 years. In private, and as a BDSM gigolo who guides women and couples in discovering their desires and boundaries. Last time we talked about curiosity, threesomes and discovering things together. Today we dive deeper. Because what is BDSM really? Shall we start with those letters?
Let’s do that. BDSM is a slightly confusing set of letters. The B stands for bondage. The D for discipline, and sometimes for dominance. Then you have the dominant and the submissive, so dominance and submission. And the S and the M are sadism and masochism. Bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, masochism.
And what is the difference between sadism and masochism?
Sadism is that you enjoy giving pain. Masochism is that you enjoy receiving pain.
Sounds lovely. Not for me, at least. But fine, there has to be variety.
Exactly. And the one fits nicely with the other.
What you see on the outside is not it
A lot of people immediately think of whips, pain or intense things when they hear BDSM. You actually say: what you see on the outside is not what BDSM really is. What do you mean by that?
Years ago there was a TV show called Jambers. It once did an episode about BDSM. And as it usually goes when BDSM shows up in the media, it was about the gear and the intensity. Leather, whips, handcuffs. Because that looks interesting on screen. But for me BDSM is much more than that. It is about the interaction you enter into together. One person likes to take the lead, the other chooses to follow.
That is exactly the part I’m interested in. Nice to hear that it isn’t only those whips. Tell me more.
For me it is always about that energy. One takes the lead, takes control, and the other chooses to follow. There are a lot of misunderstandings about BDSM. We’ll get to those, I’m sure.
How I discovered I’m dominant
You once started out as a shy young man who answered an ad. After that came the swingers club, threesomes and foursomes. But at some point you decided for yourself: BDSM, that’s my thing. How did that happen?
Decided is a big word. Discovered is better.
Okay, discovered then. How did you find out?
After that experience with the couple, where I saw something of BDSM for the first time, I had become curious. He told me how he treated his wife at home. I found that intense, and she actually found it very nice and familiar. When I was sitting in the bath there and saw how lovingly she looked at him, I thought: I want to know more about this. I started looking on dating sites. And I like strong women, so I thought: then I’ll probably be submissive.
That’s a logical thought, yes.
I didn’t know the world, so I figured that must be it. I started reading ads from dominant women. And no. Really not. That went on for a while, until I thought: maybe I’m a bit more dominant after all. So then I started reading ads from submissive women. Oh, interesting. Oh, exciting. That’s how I actually found out that I’m dominant. And that’s how my journey of discovery started.
Vanilla with a hint of dominance
Now it almost sounds like you’ve barely had vanilla sex. Is that true, or do you genuinely enjoy it?
With my wife I can still enjoy vanilla sex. It’s just that there’s always a touch in it, even if it’s only a hint of dominance.
But doesn’t that still count as vanilla?
It can. For example, it might be that I take the initiative very strongly. That’s enough.
And have you ever had a moment in a relationship where you had to open up that conversation? Like: this BDSM is really part of me?
No. I’ve never had to start the conversation toward BDSM from a vanilla situation.
That’s a bit of luck, that you’ve never had to do that.
That reminds me of apple pie.
For anyone who missed the previous episode: in it we explained how to have an expectation-free conversation with your partner, using apple pie as an example. So you wouldn’t see that conversation as a problem.
No. Exciting, yes, because they stay exciting conversations. But if you go into it without expectations, I don’t see a problem with it.
Ordinary at home, in charge in bed
That couple from your first date, were they also dominant and submissive in daily life? Or doesn’t that have to be the case?
It doesn’t have to be. I just have a normal relationship and the outside world sees none of it. I also just get told by my wife to do the dishes when I’ve forgotten.
Oh, really?
Yes. And then I say sorry and go do the dishes. But once it becomes sexual, then I’m in charge.
So there’s a difference within the BDSM world. Some carry it through into daily life, others keep it to the sexual side.
There are people where the submissive, man or woman, lets the dominant decide everything. Right down to: may I go to the bathroom?
What do you think of that?
It’s not my thing. But all respect for their choice. If they’re both happy with it and consent to it, fine. For me it’s always equal. The submissive is equal to the dominant for me. They both have a different role, but one is not worth less than the other.
And that’s often how it’s seen.
True. That’s one of those misunderstandings.
You’re not submissive to everyone
You met your current wife in that BDSM world, because you never had to open the conversation. How did that go?
I had an ad up and she had responded to it. She didn’t want a relationship, she only wanted to experience BDSM. I didn’t want a relationship either.
And by now you’re even married.
True. And thinking that through, there’s another misunderstanding right away, among men and among women. Namely that if you’re submissive, you should be submissive to everyone who says he’s dominant.
While you choose yourself who you want to do that with.
Exactly. You choose yourself whether you want it, and with whom you do and with whom you don’t.
Your own double desire
Last time we already touched briefly on my side. You thought I like someone who takes over the reins in a game. But it’s not that simple. I’m actually the one who does that, who’s dominant. And yet somewhere I have the desire for someone else to take over. I don’t want them to ask what I feel like. I want them to just take the lead.
Yes, yes.
While I always take the lead myself. So that’s very double. I don’t allow it either. I probably don’t give people enough room to take that lead, because I want to keep those reins in my own hands. Complicated, really. What do I actually want?
You’re a fairly strong woman. You won’t meet many men who really dare to be dominant toward you. Try something where you also really allow it, where it’s okay.
Often I then feel it’s not dominant enough. Then I flip the roles, and they actually always enjoy that. I also love that leading role. But still that desire remains, to dare to really give myself over once. I just don’t know how yet.
Meeting the right person, and then seeing what happens.
And that’s where that bit of energy comes in that you talk about. Whether I allow it, that’s in the energy. Not in looks or age. My husband and I are both fairly dominant. He knows I also like it the other way around, but when he tries, it doesn’t work. To me it then feels fake, something he’s doing for me. With other women I sometimes see him being very dominant, and I find that beautiful to see.
With one the energy is right, with the other it isn’t. You feel that.
Swinging and BDSM are two worlds
We ourselves are in the swinging world. There’s quite a difference with the BDSM world. I think they’re sometimes a little afraid of each other.
I think the swinging world is a little afraid of the BDSM world, and not so quickly the other way around. At a rougher dance party you see a lot of leather and heavy costumes, and it can get pretty intense. But they’re totally different worlds. The communication is different too. At a swingers party you can put your hand on someone’s back at a gathering, with the question: may I join? In the BDSM world that’s not allowed. You don’t just wade into a scene. That’s really not done.
So how do you do it then?
Then you have to be invited. Every scene has a dominant, and they can invite you.
And why are there BDSM parties at all, if it’s mostly with your own partner?
It’s a sense of community. Larger spaces, so a few more possibilities than at home. And you can watch and get inspiration: how does someone else do that? A swingers party is meant for swinging, that’s why it’s called that. A BDSM party is usually meant for experiencing BDSM, often with your own partner, sometimes in small groups or by invitation.
I was at one of those lighter parties recently, and there I mostly see those whips again.
That’s what you see. A deep look, and I snap my fingers, and now on your knees. You don’t see that energy.
Arousal without any sex involved
I was recently at a BDSM themed event where someone was tied up in Shibari. I find that beautiful to see. And then I think: now it’s coming. But then the person gets untied again. I thought: surely they should be doing something sexual?
You’re just hyper focused on sex.
Thanks.
With Shibari, Japanese bondage, it’s very often about making something beautiful and taking photos of it, and then untying again. Sometimes you put someone in a painful position for a moment, to trigger that masochistic bit, and then you untie them again. That can be very aesthetic. The other form is bondage to tie someone down so thoroughly that you can then play with them extensively.
But apart from Shibari: is the BDSM you’re into then often with sexual acts?
Not always.
While the person does get aroused by what you do? Sexually aroused, without any sex involved?
That happens a lot, yes. And what I hear back even more often: a feeling of calm. People who are completely tied up, without any sexual acts taking place, actually experience a lot of calm.
Out of your head.
Out of your head, yes. Being completely present.
Well, give me that calm then.
You say that yourself. And I find that interesting, because you just said you don’t like pain.
I’m very contradictory in everything I say, I know that about myself.
I don’t think it’s contradictory. I think you’re searching for what suits you. I also don’t see BDSM as: it’s either vanilla or BDSM. It’s a whole scale. Gentle, caressing sex leans toward vanilla. Intense hitting and whipping leans toward BDSM. But where does dominant sex sit? Is that BDSM, or is that vanilla? That can lean very much toward BDSM energetically, even without a whip involved.
Kink or fetish
This is my kink too, by the way. I unconsciously call it kink, but really that’s a fetish, isn’t it? That you need something to get aroused. And a kink is something that gets you extra aroused.
I like that one. I’ve never really thought about it that way myself.
People often say fetish when it isn’t right. If you really have a foot fetish, you need those feet to get aroused. For me it’s not a condition, I just really enjoy it. I also find kink sounds friendlier than fetish.
I actually use the word fetish in everyday life too. I have an apple pie fetish. I just like apple pie.
Yeah, then kink sounds strange again.
Exactly.
Safewords and the traffic light
You’re also a BDSM gigolo. How many of your dates are vanilla and how many BDSM?
I think about 60 percent is BDSM.
And do you work with safewords then?
Yes. Sometimes formally, sometimes not. I always listen to stop. If someone says stop, or I don’t want that, or shakes their head no, then I stop.
Unless someone has clearly indicated beforehand that they actually love to shout stop while you keep going.
Then I suggest a different word. Some people love being able to say stop while they want me to continue. Then I need a formal signal I can fully trust, so that I know when I really have to stop.
And what does such a signal look like?
In the BDSM world you sometimes come across the traffic light principle. Red is: this is not okay, stop now. Yellow is: ease off. Green is: nice, more.
I didn’t know that system yet, but it sounds logical. I myself say no or stop very easily when I don’t want something.
But not everyone is like you.
Exploring a threesome together
You’re both in the BDSM world, and there are situations where you’re in one space with others. But so far you don’t do anything with others?
Not yet. We’re exploring that now.
Where does that desire come from?
She had indicated that it seemed fun to her at some point. I remembered that, and at a certain point I got up the nerve to see if I could find someone.
And how do you decide who’s suitable for that? Does it have to be a dominant or a submissive?
In this case someone who sits in between. I stay dominant and submissive toward my wife, and she can’t handle that, she doesn’t like that. It’s a woman focused threesome.
Exciting. And do you already know whether it’s a beginning of more, or a one off?
That’s the introduction. If it then comes to a date, that’s exciting all over again. After that we’ll know whether it’s worth repeating.
Where you can find me
You just said something beautiful: that people actually develop calm in their heads when you get to work with whips and pain. How is that possible?
All kinds of chemicals are released with which the body processes the stimuli, which makes people go completely zen. But then you first have to allow someone to be dominant over you.
And if I have the right energy with someone, I can surely do that. I just haven’t met that person yet.
Keep searching hard then.
If I do come across him, it’s open for discussion with my husband. It depends on who or what it is. If he reacts badly to that person’s energy, it stops there. And that’s fine. Dear listener, if you have a good question for a next time, feel free to send it in via Jolanda from Brabants Meisje. Who knows, maybe we’ll do this again. Victor, where can people find you?
Through my website. They can always reach me there.
What I find beautiful about this conversation: that BDSM revolves much less around whips and extremes than people think, and much more around trust, safety, communication and that energy. Haven’t listened to the previous episode yet? Definitely do, because there we give practical tips on how to make desires discussable and discover things together. Victor, thank you.
Thank you. Until next time.
This episode appeared on the podcast of Brabants Meisje. Do you have a question for a next time? Feel free to send it in.