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Podcast interview: Victor on threesomes, swingers clubs, and spaghetti sex
Jolanda from the Brabants Meisje podcast interviews Victor about his first swingers club, about threesomes and spaghetti sex, and about how he guides couples. In a later episode they go deeper into the world of BDSM. The conversation below has been transcribed and lightly edited for readability.
Prefer to listen rather than read? Listen to the interview
The date that changed everything
Jolanda: Today I have a gigolo across from me, and above all a man with a remarkable story. Victor used to be extremely shy, the type who would rather observe than approach someone himself. Until a curious choice: an ad from a couple looking for an extra man. On that date you saw something special happen. You saw a man hit a woman, and then from that woman you saw a look full of love and softness.
Correct. I found it beautiful to see. I did not know that world yet, it was all new to me. He hit her. And later the three of us were in the bath together, and she looked at him so lovingly. So much affection, so much intimacy. I thought: I do not understand this, I want to know more about it.
Especially if you have never seen it before, that is a striking thing to witness.
No, because I was raised with: you do not hit girls.
And from there, from that shy boy, your journey of discovery began.
Yes, I am a bit of a late bloomer in that respect. After that date I thought: I want to look into this more. So I started browsing ads for swingers clubs too.
The first time at a swingers club
And did you go?
I found it terrifying. I did not dare, I am not going. Many times I had already thought: it is Saturday, but luckily I cannot make it this Saturday.
But in the end you worked up the nerve.
In the end I did, drove over there, and I was sweating bullets. Heart in my throat. I can picture the situation perfectly: somewhere in a village. I park my car three streets away. I take my ID and cash, because I had read I would have to identify myself. I put my car keys on the left rear tire and lock the car, so that if something serious happened, I could always run to my car, open it, and race away.
That is a remarkable preparation.
I thought: what criminal organization am I walking into? I found it nerve-racking, but I thought: let me at least take the precautions I can.
And how was it inside in the end?
Very relaxed. At first I still had a lot of nerves walking in. There is a big bouncer at the door, of course, but he was just very friendly. Walked to the bar, ordered a drink, and let it all settle first. Looked around. Once things had settled a bit, I dared to walk around. I thought: okay, this is fine, I dare to look further here.
You do not have to do anything there
Did you have any action that night too?
No. I have been to a swingers club a few times in total. That first night was just looking around: what are the social norms here, how do people communicate with each other?
And that felt okay, doing nothing? Or did you feel like you were doing something you were not supposed to?
Absolutely not. I had hoped for sex, that is why I went. But I did not mind that it did not happen, and I did not feel bad about it at all.
That is an important thing, because people often have the idea that it is somehow required.
You really do not have to do anything. Good that you say that, because I find it very important: that people know they are allowed to stay true to themselves.
Threesomes, foursomes, and spaghetti sex
You also tried threesomes and foursomes before you got into BDSM.
Yes, I tried to try as much as possible. I really enjoy a threesome. You call it spaghetti sex?
With three people I would not necessarily call it spaghetti yet, but it is the same idea: that you are really involved as three. If you are with three couples and it becomes a jumble, then I call it spaghetti sex. And with three people you get that quickly too, of course.
With three I enjoy it, yes. I have also done threesomes where I was playing with two women, or two men and one woman, but that is more one-on-one than playing together as three. I enjoy that less. Same with a foursome: then you are playing with someone else, but really it is just two duos.
That is what we find a shame too. If it is only partner swapping, we feel it is more fun when it is a jumble. And that happens sooner with more people. Then it is not like: I am with that man, so that woman has to be with my partner.
That is a very good point. Because then you get very much that “if this, then that” story.
And then you feel obligations. There really are situations where a couple expects that. It should never be that you owe a favor, or that if you do oral, the other has to as well. All that having-to, all those expectations, should really just go.
I agree. I feel: in a relationship nothing is required. Whether that is a one-on-one relationship or play with several people. You align things with each other: this is what we are going to do, these are the frames, this is what we like. But nothing is required. You make your own rules.
Why BDSM gives more freedom
You have experienced it all: swingers club, threesome, foursome. But in the end BDSM is what works for you.
Yes, that gives me more freedom. It gives me more toys, so to speak. My playground is bigger.
What do you mean by that?
My experience at a swingers club is that it is mostly about the sex. In the BDSM world and at the parties there it is much more about the connection. I really enjoy that.
How Victor became a gigolo
Somewhere in that journey you also met your current wife, and became a gigolo. Give me the short version.
I love excitement. I enjoy excitement and doing new things, I have done that my whole life. At some point I was dating and I met my wife. At some point she said: I feel so at home with you, it feels so accepted.
That she can be completely herself.
Exactly. And for me that was like: this is normal, what I do. Not to play it down, but I heard that more often. Then she said: more women would benefit from this. That was also the moment I thought: what other exciting things could I go and do? Well, maybe we can try that out. And in my daily life, when I am not a gigolo, I am a psychotherapist. So I know a little about how people are put together.
That seems like a nice addition to being a gigolo.
Precisely to create that connection. And then to play around: what is okay, what is not okay, where are the limits. Always valuing those limits, and communicating a lot in that. Then I thought: let us go for it. Put a website up, and we will see what happens.
Where do you find a third person?
A lot of people wonder: I would like an extra person, but where do I meet them?
Extra men in the shop, but I do not know which aisle they are in. Just ask at the supermarket: where are the extra men here?
Yes, and meanwhile he is lying in your shopping cart the other way around. Not exactly the perfect way, I think. There are dating sites, of course, but that is looking for a needle in a haystack. And you can work up the nerve and go to a swingers club, but then that step is nerve-racking again. So there are also couples who email or call you.
Yes. And good to come back to why I became a gigolo: I also said to my wife that women can get sex so easily, right? They walk into a bar and say: sex please. And then eighteen men line up. She said: not every woman is like that, the match has to be right, it has to click, and someone has to be able to listen. That is the same when it comes to that third person. If you place an ad, or you respond to an ad, the question remains: what kind of person is this? Does it click? Can they communicate, can they state limits, can they listen to limits?
If you just pick someone up somewhere, communicating and listening are not standard in the package for a lot of people.
No, I do not think so either.
Why paying makes it easier
I have experienced it once, on a date with a woman alone. We start playing, I begin doing some things. At some point she says: stop, stop, stop, I do not want more. That is completely fine, for her that was enough at that moment. But pick someone up off the street, or respond to an ad and invite someone, and then say that halfway through.
Then you feel the pressure that the other person expects the whole package.
Then the other person wants to push on. Or he can listen, but goes home disappointed. And where the pressure also lies then: do I dare to say that I feel it is enough?
That is scarier, yes. You do not want to hurt someone. Whereas if you pay someone: you have paid. I have trouble receiving myself, or at least receiving for a long time, because then I go into the mode: is that person not fed up? Then I am already thinking about giving back. Whereas if you pay someone, you do not have to do anything.
That makes it a lot easier. Those limits make it easier, the frames are clear. I always ask about wishes too. Sometimes those are very particular wishes, and sometimes it is: yeah, does not matter much.
On speaking your wishes
You say: I ask about wishes. But do you also do that during the play? I have quite a few people who ask me: what do you like? And then I think: just do it. I will say stop if I do not like it. Surprise me. But then I already know what you are going to do because I asked, and then I do not enjoy it as much.
Bring me a bunch of flowers spontaneously. Here, the bunch of flowers. Yeah, that is not spontaneous.
Exactly. But I really should learn better that it is okay to say it.
It also depends on how the process goes. Look, if you are lying in bed with someone and he asks: what do you want me to do now?
Oh no, that is even worse.
Exactly. And: was that good? Shall I do it again, or do you want me to do something else? That makes the hairs on your neck stand up.
Another example: if you really like being tickled under your feet, but you have never communicated it, how am I supposed to know?
You cannot know that either.
During the play I do not ask that much. I pay close attention to someone’s energy, whether I am on the right track or not. I listen very closely for whether people say stop.
And not everyone dares to say that.
No, but I always practice it beforehand. Can you say stop for a moment? I want to know that you can say it. And beforehand, in the pre-talk over WhatsApp, I often ask: what do you like, what do your fantasies tend toward? Then I know it. But then the answer is not directly tied to what I do on the date.
It is like a fancy restaurant with a menu you do not choose yourself. They also ask: what do you like and what not? If you say you do not eat fish, they know that. And then you do not get fish, only because you said so.
A first threesome with a couple
Couples book you for their first threesome, for example. How does that go?
I usually get an email or a message, usually from the man. The man often takes a bit more initiative than the woman, and he says: I would like an extra man for my wife.
Do you then check whether the woman really agrees?
I always check whether the woman agrees. By now I have strong feelers for it: what kind of man sends such an email, and what is in the words and any pictures they send. Sometimes I ask if I can message the woman for a moment, or I start a group chat. It is whatever they prefer, and how many red or green flags I see.
If someone says: I want to organize a surprise party for my wife. That is usually a fake request. Though it can also be a real wish of hers, and once it is arranged it becomes: oh no, I did not know I was really going to do this.
Even then it can still work. If she indicates she does not want everything after all, you simply do not do it. But I can imagine that at a first threesome you think: how are we going to do this as three? You steer it a bit then, so that no one is sitting there watching. Suppose the man is not very forthcoming, do you then say: give her a kiss?
I will take initiative sooner then to start the play. And I will call him in sooner: come here.
I think some people need that.
It gives an extra nudge. Almost a kind of permission to join in.
Cuckolding and hotwife
You also get requests where it is specifically about cuckolding. Explain?
When with a man-woman couple the man really enjoys watching his wife have sex with someone else, and possibly being humiliated in the process: that his penis is laughed at.
That is not required, it can also be just the watching. There are gradations. And is she then called the hotwife?
That is derived from it.
Do you run into that a lot?
I run into that fairly often, yes. And that is because, I did not know all this beforehand either, a lot of men have that fantasy but do not dare discuss it with their wife. So a date does not come of it very often.
So you would have a date where she does not know, and you do know that he has to stay in the corner. That is a strange thing for that woman. If a man likes it, that does not mean the woman is up for it.
No. But it can be a really nice dynamic.
The apple pie conversation
If you do not know what the other wants: how do you open that conversation without your partner getting defensive?
I once heard a nice story about that. A couple had a good relationship in itself, but they grew apart, because it no longer matched. Five or eight years later they run into each other at a BDSM party. They look at each other: hey, nice that you are here. Do you like this too? Yes, you too? And then they got back together.
Oh my god, what a story. If only they had just opened the conversation.
That is what I pass on in psychotherapy, to couples, but also when a woman books me alone because it does not match with her husband: have the conversation. And what I find important in it. I sometimes call it the apple pie conversation. That I can freely say to you: hey, I feel like apple pie. Without you thinking: oh, I have to go arrange an apple pie.
Yes, because I would immediately walk to the supermarket for that apple pie.
But surely I am allowed to say I feel like apple pie? Especially if it is completely unfamiliar, I would approach it like this: I want to discuss something with you, and you do not have to do anything with it. I just want you to keep it in the back of your mind. I would say that a few times.
And then I will say it. But then you hope that after a while it will…
No. I want to get out that I feel like apple pie, and you do not have to do anything with it. If you like apple pie too, then maybe we can explore it. But it does not have to.
Okay: I at least do not want it from the supermarket, I want a homemade apple pie. But I do not know yet when I will have time for it or feel like it.
Then you can shape the conversation around substance instead of expectation. I say to you: I feel like apple pie. You say: what kind of apple pie? With slices or with chunks? With a hard crust or a soft one? An old-fashioned grandma’s apple pie or a modern one? With glaze? Then you have a conversation about where my wish lies.
And where the other’s wish lies, and whether they meet.
Then you look for the solution together. It could well be: with a nice dollop of whipped cream. Would a stroopwafel with whipped cream also be something you like? Yes, I like that a lot too, and I happen to have those at home. Then you go from “I feel like apple pie” to a stroopwafel with whipped cream that meets my wish too.
So the most important thing is how you open it. Not saying right away that you feel like apple pie, but the sentence before it: that you want to share something without an expectation of the other.
Then you immediately take the pressure and the appeal off the other person. And if I did not say it, then I would have a secret from you.
And then that apple pie becomes even more interesting.
Possibly. But then there is something standing between us in our relationship. I know: he feels like apple pie, he loves apple pie, I really cannot stand it, give me cream cake. Fine. But then it is not standing between the two of you.
No emotional entanglements
Something we have not mentioned yet: it is also nice that it does not get emotional, the contact with you. If you look for someone as a couple, you can quickly be afraid an emotional bond forms.
The partner does not have to get jealous. The limits are simply clear.
Why is there still a taboo on it?
It does not actually sound so strange when we name it all. So why is there still such a taboo on paying for sex? Everyone gets happy from it, right?
If your back hurts you go to the masseur. That is very normal. And if that masseur pinches a bit hard, you say: no, that is too hard, I would like it a bit lower.
I actually find that difficult, telling a masseur to do something differently. Even though I am paying for it.
Point discovered. In principle it could be very normal: I have a certain need, my body is stuck, I go look for a solution. But hiring a professional in the sexual field is still strange. For men it is somewhat okay, and for women it is strange, dirty, something you do not do. Surely every woman can get as much sex as she wants?
I find it a waste. I hope we contribute a little here to showing that there does not have to be a taboo on it.
In the reviews on my site I keep reading that women blossom again. I am seen again. I am touched nicely again.
We are just much more focused on pleasing the other and too little on saying what we ourselves need. And the payment takes that block away.
Yes. And I usually ask afterward: how was it, what did you think, what did it bring you? Those stories really stay with me.
Nice that you ask that. I have enjoyed this episode, and I am already looking forward to the next one, where we dive deeper into the world of BDSM.
This episode first appeared on the podcast of Brabants Meisje. The follow-up conversation is about BDSM.